Strange LED behavior on Switches

[Mfryd]

So it is expected behavior for all Insteon SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs to blink all onboard LEDs when they see non Insteon activity on the line, but NOT to blink for Insteon Activity? Is this documented anywhere?

[stusviews]

No, Insteon device [B]LEDs[/B] do not blink on Insteon activity nor non-Insteon activity. Insteon device [I]set buttons [/I]can be set to blink on Insteon activity and the set button on some devices will blink green if the linked device(s) ACKs the signal and red if not. However, some smart meters and older TED devices can cause the problem you're experiencing.

[Mfryd]

So it seems clear that this is not a "blink on traffic" or a "blink on transmit" issue. It appears to be a known issue with Smart Meters.

Is it really causing all my SwitchLincs to reboot?

Will this cause harm to any of my Insteon devices?

Does this suggest that there is something wrong with my Smart Meter, or is it an incompatibility with the that brand model? If it's a problem with this particular smart meter, I can try to have power company replace it. If it's this model of smart meter, I can try to have them install a different model meter.

Is there any documentation or technical notes on what is happening? If I want my utility company's help, I need something a little more concrete than "someone on the Internet told me this is caused by Smart Meters".

Do current model TED devices cause this issue?

[BLH]

The TED 1000 and TED 5000 MTU sends a power line signal every few seconds at 132KHz.
Insteon is 131.65KHz. They will interfere with both X10 and Insteon devices.
The TED Pro series from what I saw on the their web site. Can do Ethernet or PLC from the MTU. I did not find a PLC frequency but it is most likely also 132KHz.

[stusviews]

Your devices are not rebooting. They do not reboot at all. Your devices are responding to irregularities in the power line that may resemble Insteon signals as outlined by BLH for TED devices.

I'm not aware of any specific smart meters that cause or avoid such signals, only that there have been posts to that effect. It may not be the meter. But, I'm not aware of anything that can cause button LEDs to blink other than placing then into linking mode. I'm not aware of anything that can cause the side LEDs on SwitchLincs to blink, not even linking mode.

You may want to get an electrical inspection.

One possible culprit: the wire nuts are not tight enough. Tightening them by hand is often insufficient, an extra twist with pliers is best. If the same person installed everything, then that's a (slim) possibility.

BTW, Insteon devices are unlikely to be damaged.

[Mfryd]

[QUOTE=stusviews;n87109]Your devices are not rebooting. They do not reboot at all. Your devices are responding to irregularities in the power line that may resemble Insteon signals as outlined by BLH for TED devices.[/QUOTE]


That doesn't seem quite right. I don't know of any Insteon command that should be able to get the SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs to behave in this fashion.

Unless there is some Insteon command that I don't know about.

I do know that some devices do have firmware bugs. Once or twice a year, one of my older SwitchLincs will stop working. It becomes unresponsive, ignoring both local and remote command. Power cycling the SwitchLinc fixes the problem. This suggests to me that it is possible for the firmware to hang.



[QUOTE=stusviews;n87109]I'm not aware of any specific smart meters that cause or avoid such signals, only that there have been posts to that effect. It may not be the meter. But, I'm not aware of anything that can cause button LEDs to blink other than placing then into linking mode. I'm not aware of anything that can cause the side LEDs on SwitchLincs to blink, not even linking mode.[/QUOTE]

Yes. That's why I am puzzled. I haven't found anything to suggest that it's possible to get the SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs to blink all thier lights in this fashion.

The fact that multiple devices spanning multiple models and firmware revisions all go simultaneously into this mode suggests that this is some sort of intended behavior. If it was a bug, I wouldn't expect all the devices to behave the same way.

This gets us back to my original question - what are the SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs trying to tell me when they blink all their lights?

Is there some Insteon command to make them do this?

Are they trying to tell me they see non-Insteon signals jamming the powerline communications?

Are they trying to tell me that there are Insteon communications that contain un-implemented (reserved) Insteon commands?

Perhaps they are trying to tell me that they are receiving validly formatted Insteon commands that don't match their internal tables (i.e. they are being asked to cleanup from a scene when they aren't in that scene).

If I knew what caused this behavior (interference, unsupported request, non-sensical request, jamming, firmware crash, etc.) then I would have a better understanding of the implications and the remedy. Perhaps the problem is my ISY sending out bad requests? Perhaps the PLM is failing? Maybe it really is the smart meter?



[QUOTE=stusviews;n87109]You may want to get an electrical inspection.

One possible culprit: the wire nuts are not tight enough. Tightening them by hand is often insufficient, an extra twist with pliers is best. If the same person installed everything, then that's a (slim) possibility.

BTW, Insteon devices are unlikely to be damaged.[/QUOTE]

What do suggest the electrical inspector look for?


As it turns out, I have a degree in electrical engineering, and many years of experience with household wiring. The grounds are good, the connections are tight, Neutrals are good, voltages are correct. All the basics seem correct.

The house used to have an X-10 system. The early Insteon SwitchLincs were used in X-10 mode. A few years ago, the last of the X-10 devices were removed (along with the X-10 bridge), and everything was reprogrammed from scratch from the ISY.

The Insteon devices were installed over a period of years, not all at the same time. I would be surprised if there was a common installation fault that affected all of them.


Mostly this is a puzzlement. I don't like it when a system like this exhibits behavior that shouldn't be possible. If I had posted a note asking how to get all the LEDs to blink at once, I suspect I would receive a number of responses telling me that Insteon SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs won't do this. And even if they could do it, the commands would vary depending on the specific model and firmware.

[BLH]

If the signals are strong enough. They actually maybe getting into the power supply of the module and causing issues.
It is a documented fact in the X10 Forums. At least one Smart Meter model signals. Will cause X10 devices to go on and off randomly.
JV Digital Engineering developed a special filter to remove the signals getting in to the problem home.

There are some end users comments on Insteon Devices on this web site. Including odd findings with some hardware or firmware versions.

[url]http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm[/url]