Sunset & Sunrise +/- minutes

[lilyoyo1]

The problem with adding basic features is; where does it stop? For those who desires offset, its a piece of cake and not a big deal. What about those who want geofencing? Or those those who want a count down from when a device turns on.

Its a never ending story when it comes to features. Like Stusviews said, "its an entry level device". Many things we would love for it to do it just doesnt make sense financially without increasing the cost of the device or potentially causing additional issues.

[stusviews]

In order to keep the Hub as a low cost entry level device, a minimal microprocessor is used-it's maxed out. There's no reason not to add features if it was economically practical.

[ricketyca]

Stu, I had not meant to attribute something to you that you had not intended. I must have misinterpreted "Suppose it costs a penny to maintain a time offset (a made up cost)". thinking that the "maintain" meant "ongoing".

It would be fascinating to be able to see the sort of code that is running in the Hub and app and then we would not need to speculate as to the complexity of the task, nor whether any additional hardware would be needed to support it. I have been involved in many programming projects and certainly making changes is not always easy. However the fact that I can effectively create an offset by changing the location (and could change it again overnight to effect a change for the sunrise time) means that it cannot take much more hardware!

Best regards

[stusviews]

There would not be an on-going cost. I didn't claim that. Only that the cost would not be trivial. What seems like a simple request would add to the cost of the Hub. That's because adding that feature includes much, much more, which I agree would be nice, but the Hub would no longer be a low cost entry level device.

Think of the innovation of color TV. It's not just the cost of the CRT, but the entire circuitry needed to be redesigned and many more parts added while maintaining compatibility with the then predominately B&W broadcasters.

BTW, I've been around long enough to know circuitry of that time using vacuum tubes, way before solid state devices (i.e., transistors) as well as what's currently involved with coding, starting with BASIC and Pascal, even more.

Adding a time offset opens up the need for a bunch of changes, not the least of which is a more powerful microprocessor or very involved changes in the circuitry to compensate for a limited microprocessor and, most likely, more ROM.

[ricketyca]

Stu, I do not see why there would need to be an ongoing cost for providing two programmed values for sunrise and sunset offsets. There is a programming cost of course to provide the feature enhancement and with the current expenditure levels on the Hub Android app it is clear that it is not an environment that Insteon seems willing to support to an extent comparable to iOS, so any expectation is somewhat moot. If it were at least added to the iOS app, it would be even further incentive to buy an old iOS device and give up on the Android app. That may be what they are hoping will occur,

For me, I have set my location in Lake Ontario just south of Prince Edward County Ontario, and so my lights come on about 15 minutes earlier that they would normally. Only my porch lights remain on all night and the fact they also turn off too soon is not a major inconvenience.

[stusviews]

Sounds good, but every enhancement costs. Even a small improvement can be relatively costly. The Hub is especially made to be a lowest possible cost entry-level device.

Here's a hypothetical example: Suppose it costs a penny to maintain a time offset (a made up cost). At 24/7 with only 5000 users, the annual cost would be more than $18,000. That doesn't account for multiple time zones nor more than 5000 users.

At two tenths (.002) of a cent a day with 10,000 users it's still more than $7,300 annually. That may no seem like much to you, but you're not paying

[Gunn]

The Hub is meant to be a low cost introduction to HA. It's adequate for many users. Adding an offset to sunrise/sunset times is NOT trivial. Minimizing features is what helps keep the cost of the Hub low. If you need more features, then you'll have to purchase something more costly.

Insteon needs to be careful here though...if they minimize the features so much, people will buy it...but then be turned off pretty quickly for simple things like sunrise/sunset offset. I still don't get it Even if the Hub doesn't have the hardware for it, why don't they use the cloud/their servers to perform the calculations and then simply tell my Hub to turn on the lights at the proper time? That's a rhetorical question as I don't expect an answer. If I knew enough about the Hub hardware, I'd probably find the answer anyway...but I shouldn't need to know...it should just work!

[stusviews]

The Hub is meant to be a low cost introduction to HA. It's adequate for many users. Adding an offset to sunrise/sunset times is NOT trivial. Minimizing features is what helps keep the cost of the Hub low. If you need more features, then you'll have to purchase something more costly.

[jjbelew]

I have been watching this thread and it is disappointing that the Hub can't handle a simple offset. It can't possibly require much in the way of compute resources.

As a workaround, I started playing with Stringify. It will integrate with the Insteon Hub and you can do the offset that way. Stringify now tells my selected Insteon-connected lights to come on 1 hour before sunset.

You can also have it randomize the time so it looks like you're home - something else the Hub should be able to handle.

[rehills]

Please add this feature! I was surprised to find that my new Insteon hub doesn't support a Sunrise/Sunset offset +/- X a number of minutes. Or even better, a random offset between X and Y minutes. Surely the Hub can handle a static offset. It's getting a different Sunrise and Sunset time each day.

My HCA home automation software can do this as can my ISY. I bought the hub to control automation in my summer cabin.

[lilyoyo1]

I understand your point. On the flip side the 35 dollar switch was designed for a specific task and can't accomplish all the things an Insteon switch can. It all depends on perspective.

I don't know the full capabilities of the hub network. However whatay sound easy on the surface could involve more work than we realize on the backend for them. That coupled with all the requests for other things that I'm quite sure they receive may push this to the bottom. Especially when you look at the time that is involved with fixing current bugs, other 3rd party systems, camera additions, etc.

[ricketyca]

lilyoyo, I agree and understand that they need to apply effort and resources to make things work. I would not bother with the sunrise/sunset if there was a way to use the dark/light ability of the sensor to activate a hub scene. Sadly, although it would seem like a basic home automation task, the Android app and hub v2 do not support it. My suggestion was to add a feature that does not require significant resources in order to satisfy some requests from customers. Predecessor products that are now unsupported could do this at a not much greater price point.

For sunrise/sunset offsets, an independent (not Insteon) Honeywell switch can do it with a price of $35 so I would have thought that a switch at $50 and a hub at $75 should have comparable ability. Unless one were to troll this forum before buying it is not clear about the current, significant gaps in what can be achieved with the Android app and the hub.

I like the Insteon things and will no doubt keep using them, but I thought that indicating an interest for a feature in this forum might help the company prioritise. Some have replied indicating that the hub has limited hardware, and I was commenting that I felt there were simple ways of implementing the feature without major resources being expended for development or used within the hub.

[lilyoyo1]

You get what you pay for. A person can't expect an eighty dollar device to perform like a more expensive device does. That applies to anything. If you buy the cheapest laptop, you can't expect gaming performance.

The hub is what it is. It is an entry level controller designed to allow people to get started with home automation at a low price point. For those who needs demand more, then there are other controllers for it. It would be nice if they were to invest the amount of time and money needed to provide many different features. However with a low price point and a no subscription setup for additional sources of income, there is no push for greater investment.

[ricketyca]

Irrespective of how it is implemented in the Hub V2, it must be quite simple and not demanding of hardware to have a value stored to adjust the sunset time and another to adjust the sunrise time. If this relatively simple approach were implemented in the V2, many of these users would find it better, and acceptable I am sure. I can achieve "30 minutes before sunset" by defining my location as 300 miles to the east of where I really am, but of course this also makes sunrise earlier than reality.

[NSFW]

What software are you referring to?

I'm not keen on spending $200 to make a new $50 automated dimmer do the same things as the existing $25 timer switch. :-) I realize that the ISY does much more, but my needs are pretty modest.... I just find it odd that a $50 Insteon switch linked to a $75 Insteon hub is still missing some simple automation features that came standard on a $25 standalone switch.

Sorry to sound so negative.... I actually like Insteon quite a bit so far. I'm just two devices away from having all of my other stuff switched over to Insteon, and I'm going to be putting about 25 Z-Wave dimmers plus a few keypads on Craigslist next week. Insteon was much easier to set up and has been much more reliable.