Hub Pro device status - device turned on by other controller

[mcbrayed]

This is not something Apple needs to change as the same issue exists when using Insteon and other Home Control/Automation platforms (Google "Do insteon dimmers push status"). I have the same issue when using in wall dimmers in a 3-way scene and the Hub Pro. If I turn on the light using the dimmer with the load directly attached, the Insteon+ App (and other HomeKit apps for that matter) reflect the change almost immediately. However, when I turn on the light from the other dimmer in the 3-way setup (no directly attached load) the light turns on but no status change is seen on the Insteon+ App. Currently that's because the Hub Pro is only monitoring the primary dimmer for changes. Since the Insteon "traffic" so to speak is visible by the Hub Pro you would think it would be smart enough to say "The device I control has changed state. Let me reflect that." No change is needed in the underlying design of the Insteon Protocol or anything crazy. A simple firmware update should fix this rather easy I imagine, and I have a support ticket opened with Insteon to do just that. I will update as I hear back.

[lilyoyo1]

The simplest fix would be apples servers sending a command regardless of the status in its servers. Software such as the ISY will send a command regardless of state which is why it is able to overcome most obstacles. However if any programs are based on status and a device was turned on outside of ISY's ecosystem, those programs would not run.

In a perfect world we all would be able to use whatever controllers and how ever many we want. However, it would cause more issues for the company to try and please a few than it would for people to use systems the way they were designed.

[mcbrayed]

If the Insteon+ Hub doesn't currently know how to use its own protocol's scene commands for either control or to drive status updates, that's a problem. Asking Apple to create a 'send a signal anyway' workaround might reduce Insteon's tech support calls in the short term, but that leaves the Insteon+ app and other HomeKit software displaying (and potentially acting on) inaccurate status data for Insteon gear. That leaves the Insteon HomeKit option appearing unnecessarily inferior to other brands and technologies, not the kind of thing I would expect Apple to go along with. Not, at least, if we've learned anything from the big banks and the rollout of ApplePay.

This is 100% correct. Apple implementing a half-baked work around doesn't actually fix the issue, it would only be a band-aid. Even if Apple were to implement a "send anyway" feature, it would still leave the other half of the equation without a fix. As an example, I use 6 button keypads to control a FanLinc module. Even if Apple sends the command to turn on the light even if it thinks it's already on, my keypad still becomes out of sync. Not the ideal setup when using all Insteon products and still feeling like a half finished end result. Until the Insteon+ Hub/Hub Pro can act as a responder to the full scene the implementation isn't complete.

[lilyoyo1]

Homekit was designed for multiple protocols to work together not full featured individual device protocols. That's why the manufacturers own systems work better on their own outside of homekit

For example lutron caseta system is a full functioning system outside of homekit. However, should you add additional homekit devices such as hue, you would need to use another app to control them as neither mfg. Allows you to add other 3rd party devices to their apps. (Caseta allows for thermostats). With that said, should you do that, you lose the features of Lutrons system and will only have the homekit benefits of whatever app your using.

There is no perfect system. Trying to work around homekit limitations and then blaming the mfg. When it doesn't work is not on them. Find the system that does what you want even if there are some features missing and you'll have a much better experience rather than piecing together multiple systems.

To use a different analogy is buying a porsche and putting off road tires on it but blaming the mfg. When you can't go mud bogging with it

[mcbrayed]

If Apple were making the Hub hardware then I could see how it would be there problem to fix. However, as Insteon is tasked with implementing their own protocol on their own hardware this is their problem to fix. Not only that but this problem doesn't exist on their other HomeKit hubs/bridges. As you yourself have stated, HomeKit was designed to work with multiple protocols. It was not meant to deal with individual existing protocols. HomeKit needs to be given the correct status for an Insteon device by the Insteon Hub that is acting as the bridge. This is no different than a Hue bridge is expected to give the appropriate status to HomeKit about Hue bulbs. Lutron devices don't seem to have this issue either.

As for the analogy, this is more like Porsche selling you mud tires as an add-on option and then telling you after you purchased the car that you shouldn't take it off road. Apple didn't sell me the Insteon+ Hub/Hub Pro, Insteon did. If they can't work with HomeKit correctly then they had no business releasing the hardware to begin with. I only fault Apple for advertising for Insteon on their site as if this is a production ready device.

[lilyoyo1]

Insteon sold you Homekit enabled hubpro. Meaning it's for homekit. Like Stu's said you want to play in apples garden you play by apples rules. If you want all the features of Insteon play in Insteon garden and use the hub.

Lutron devices operate differently within homekit. Try and add Insteon devices to Lutrons app. Good luck. Add lutron devices to the Insteon app and turn them on. You'll see a difference then.

Sure Insteon can follow Lutrons lead and not allow you to add third party stuff to their app but then your next complaint would be that it does not have full homekit support. (Which is the lutron complaint)

[mcbrayed]

I received a response to my support ticket today. For those who care this is what they had to say.

David, Thank you for contacting Smarthome. I am sorry for any inconvenience. We are currently working on an update to improve the statusing for the Hub Pro. Once it has been updated it should correct the issue you are experiencing. Sincerely, Daniel Customer Solution Representative Direct: 800-762-7846 Insteon It’s your house. Turn it on. www.insteon.com Smarthome Home Automation Superstore www.smarthome.com

That should clear up any confusion about whose problem this is to fix. Very glad to hear there's a resolution in the works though.

[spencerny1]

I have this problem myself and it is somewhat irritating. I really like the ability to use Sri for home automation because I am currently quadriplegic and rely on my voice for most tasks the majority of people can perform by hand. I had my house get flooded about 2 years ago that wiped out all my previous assistive technology which was x10 and terrible. The system was over 15k and very finicky. When Apple announced Homekit and Insteon as a partner I immediately made the decision of installing Insteon throughout my house since it was the most complete solution at the time. I have the regular also that I used with the horrible insteon windows app while waiting for the hub pro. The hub pro really suffered reliability issues at first but as of late the only problem I have had is with the status not updating. It takes me an extra 30 seconds to just tell siri to turn something off and back on for it to work again which is a minor inconvenience but not as bad as being stuck with no light or fan at all. The iphone 6s now also let's me activate hey siri without being plugged in which is great. The hub pro has been extremely reliable lately and it can only improve. I imagine this problem has to do with the rigorous security required by Homerit. Apple homekit has not been more widely adopted because the rules and security requirements. I just hope more people have positive experiences because I really want Insteon to continue supporting the product without meeting the same fate as Google's revolve hub.

[stusviews]

An ISY plus a portal ($49/2 yrs) and an Amazon Echo or Dot will allow you to use your voice the control any and all your Insteon devices. You can even control scenes. No matter if you use your voice, a scene or someone manually controls a device, all devices involved will respond. A smartphone is not needed.

[ckk]

As an aside, the issues are even worse that folks have made them out to be, and are easily fixed by Insteon FW.

Not only can a 3-way switched light change only be seen in HK when the main load switch is toggled, but if I hit *any* button on my insteon keypad, even one that has nothing to do with the load, then the HK updates the state of the load. That's clearly an Insteon FW issue.

The solution should be that you connect the "load-controlling" switch to Homekit as you currently do, and since the switch obviously always knows the state of the load, regardless of who turned it on or off, it should update the Hub Pro at any state change regardless of where the change came from.

It seems like Insteon tried to hack the hub pro together and stick what is essentially a minimum viable product into their ecosystem without doing anything more. A proper solution likely requires a new message type from all of the switches and FW on the Hub Pro that only pays attention to those new "load state change" message types. Not impossible, but definitely different than the old way of doing things, and lots of devices will need new FW, so you can see why they haven't done it yet.

Another solution would be to add the normal Insteon scene programming to the Hub Pro, require the user to do all scene programming in the Hub Pro rather than elsewhere, and then have the Hub Pro watch all commands from all switches. If any command will turn on a particular load based on any scene, then update homekit. This would only require Hub Pro changes, but it seems like a relatively large SW and potentially HW update to the device might be necessary.

And BTW, this is certainly not Apple's fault. Since the individual switches are not homekit compatible, it's up to Insteon to make their hub translate the state of their insteon switches to the Apple requirements.

My 2 cents is that the current state of the Hub Pro is almost unusable specifically due to this problem. It will only work in simple "single switch, single load" setups. I'm sure Insteon is aware and working on it, but I fear that they will require new HW to gain the benefits (which would suck).

[svento]

Interesting timing of this comment, ckk. I actually just noticed yesterday morning that I was able to repeatedly shut off an Insteon switch (by pushing the actual switch), then tell siri to turn that switch on. It worked every time. So it seems that somehow the Hub Pro was getting the updated status of the switch, and that somehow HomeKit was also made aware of this updated status (or a change has been made so that HomeKit now just tries to turn on even if it believes the device is already on). Either way I was very happy as this seems to solve the problem. I wonder why you still see the issue? Does anyone else (who actually owns a Hub Pro) see the problem still?

[ckk]

I tried it out this morning (just installed the switches and the homekit pro this past weekend), and that was the behavior. Maybe I need to update the FW on everything. Hub Pro seems to be on "version 1.1.0, Build 67"; App is up to date.

And the switches are all new from Smarthome about a week ago. I just realized that the switch FW is not upgradeable, which makes some of my previous comment impossible to implement without new "HK switches" :-( Hopefully the insteon folks can figure something out (check status every 10s or something).

--C

[ckk]

Interesting timing of this comment, ckk. I actually just noticed yesterday morning that I was able to repeatedly shut off an Insteon switch (by pushing the actual switch), then tell siri to turn that switch on. It worked every time. So it seems that somehow the Hub Pro was getting the updated status of the switch, and that somehow HomeKit was also made aware of this updated status (or a change has been made so that HomeKit now just tries to turn on even if it believes the device is already on). Either way I was very happy as this seems to solve the problem. I wonder why you still see the issue? Does anyone else (who actually owns a Hub Pro) see the problem still?

Oh, re-reading your comment -- yes, that works on the switch connected to the load for me as well. It just doesn't work for other Insteon switches that also control that load (ex. 3-way setup or a scene button on a keypad).

So in my kitchen, I have 2 switches controlling the ceiling light (which is also connected to an "all-on" scene on a keypad). If I hit the switch connected directly to the light, the app updates. If I hit anything else, the app doesn't update. Worse, if I hit s scene button on a keypad that is not controlling the load that's also connected to that keypad, then the app thinks that I just turned the load on.

Basically the hub pro seems to be looking for any packet that has "source_address==load control" for that load and assuming that the command is for that load. Maybe the packet format doesn't include information that the particular packet didn't actually affect the attached load, or maybe they ignore that info, but regardless it's generally unusable in any reasonably complex setup. And why would you be buying Insteon if you weren't going to do something interesting with it?

I will probably check the return policy at smarthome, and give them a couple of weeks, and return the hub if nothing changes. Will revisit in 6 months or something after that. My fear continues to be that I will also need new keypads to make things work with homekit.

--C

[stusviews]

That sounds like you may have created some scenes manually or using something other than the Hub Pro to link devices.

[ckk]

That sounds like you may have created some scenes manually or using something other than the Hub Pro to link devices.

Hi Stu,

Thanks for the comment. Yes, I linked the switches manually. I believe this is necessary for the keypads, since the hub pro doesn't support keypads.

But I thought it was also necessary for normal 3-way switches. I'm probably wrong -- if I add the extra "3-way" switch (the one that's not connected to a load), how do I link them together using the Insteon+ app? Do I create a scene? It's unclear how I would add 2 switches to the same light fixture in the App, but if that's possible, that would be a step in the right direction.