Strobing load group when turning on other groups

[gare]

I have had no issues using Insteon to dim cree/ecosmart and halo 4" LED retrofit recessed ceiling fixture modules. A client wanted LED's within a gimbal at 4000k and I could only find these:
Lithonia 4G1MW LED 40K 90CRI M6 - no one else had them in 4000k.

There are many load groups in the home, but relative to the Lithonia there are four load: one with six lights, two with three lights and one with two lights.

When any Lithonia group is dimmed and any other load is turned on the lights in the Lithonia groups jump to full intensity then back down to where they were set, much worse with the 6 fixture group, sometimes strobing about three times in maybe a second or less. I am going to break the six light group into one 4 and one 2, then program them to come on with the same keypad button press - I am just winging it here and can sure use some help.

Thank you
Gary

[EVIL Teken]

Information only: Presently there is only two Insteon products that state LED supported loads. That is the In Line Linc module and Insteon relay type hardware. Having said this many of us have had great results using most of the Insteon dimmers for LED bulbs. The key is finding a LED brand, maker, model, that works as expected.

Keeping in mind there are lots of other Home Automation brands from X-10, Z-Wave, ZigBee, UPB, that also have problems with LED bulbs so this is not unique to Insteon alone.

Some quick trouble shooting will help you determine if its the load in question.

- Replace just one bulb with a incandescent load in the string - does the problem go away? If so the LED bulb does not have the required (minimum) load as noted in the hardware spec which is clearly listed in the advert / manual(s).
- Replace (ALL) bulbs with incandescent in the string - does the stobing go away? If so the LED bulbs are not compatible with the Insteon switch. The only solution is to replace them with units that work as expected.

Lastly, many LED bulbs when turned on have a *Inrush Current / Start up* of 2-10 times more than a standard incandescent load. Meaning for milliseconds - seconds the current can be dozens of amps over the specs listed in the manual.

[BLH]

Many also have a Repetitive Peek Current on each half of the AC wave form. So that also has to be considered when adding up LED bulb wattage's.
I have one brand LED bulb that says use 80 watts when adding up total wattage on a dimmer. Even though they used about 8.5 watts each.

[gare]

Information only: Presently there is only two Insteon products that state LED supported loads. That is the In Line Linc module and Insteon relay type hardware. Having said this many of us have had great results using most of the Insteon dimmers for LED bulbs. The key is finding a LED brand, maker, model, that works as expected.

Keeping in mind there are lots of other Home Automation brands from X-10, Z-Wave, ZigBee, UPB, that also have problems with LED bulbs so this is not unique to Insteon alone.

Some quick trouble shooting will help you determine if its the load in question.

- Replace just one bulb with a incandescent load in the string - does the problem go away? If so the LED bulb does not have the required (minimum) load as noted in the hardware spec which is clearly listed in the advert / manual(s).
- Replace (ALL) bulbs with incandescent in the string - does the stobing go away? If so the LED bulbs are not compatible with the Insteon switch. The only solution is to replace them with units that work as expected.

Lastly, many LED bulbs when turned on have a *Inrush Current / Start up* of 2-10 times more than a standard incandescent load. Meaning for milliseconds - seconds the current can be dozens of amps over the specs listed in the manual.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I just subscribed to my own post so I can see these right away - sheesh.

If I can replace one bulb and suddenly the string works, I can then use a power resistor to "fix" the problem, but this string of six has greater wattage than the other strings working slightly better than the large one, so I am leaning more toward these lights not being compatible - a sad thing since they are on a gimbal with a specific kelvin rating (4000) which eliminated halo and cree (2700 to 3500).

I will post if a resolution is found that works.

[gare]

Many also have a Repetitive Peek Current on each half of the AC wave form. So that also has to be considered when adding up LED bulb wattage's.
I have one brand LED bulb that says use 80 watts when adding up total wattage on a dimmer. Even though they used about 8.5 watts each.

Considering this group of 6 lights is much more offensive than groups of three, I wonder if using a 1000w dimmer or breaking the loads up will help. It is just odd that they dim fine, the "flashing" occurs when the are dimmed and a different load-group is turned on. I have a video of it, pretty wild, can we post them on here? If no, may I provide a link?

[gare]

Information only: Presently there is only two Insteon products that state LED supported loads. That is the In Line Linc module and Insteon relay type hardware. Having said this many of us have had great results using most of the Insteon dimmers for LED bulbs. The key is finding a LED brand, maker, model, that works as expected.

Is there a list being kept of those found to work ok? I have a couple of brands that i have had no issues with.

Information only: Lastly, many LED bulbs when turned on have a *Inrush Current / Start up* of 2-10 times more than a standard incandescent load. Meaning for milliseconds - seconds the current can be dozens of amps over the specs listed in the manual.

I understand this, but these lamps are already on. Then, when dimmed, when another load is turned on, they jump up then back down. I need to see if it is only when another LED load is turned on. I wonder if putting them on a different circuit will help. It really sucks because they appeared to work fine when we test one, then bought 16 and installed them. We then tested individual groups, and no problem. The homeowner dimmed the largest group and saw the flicker when she turned on a different group. So, now I have an added test point before buying a bunch of fixtures. :-(

[EVIL Teken]

This may not be directly related to the issue at hand but something to try or rule out as root cause.

- Verify all wire bundles are properly secured using linesmen pliers. More often than not people simply turn the wire nut to secure the wire - this is incorrect!

- Options: The following feature options are only available via software controller and mostly through the ISY vs HUB II. Please ensure blink on traffic, blink on error, is turned off.

- Simple test: Air gap one (Switch Linc) set of light strings and dim the lights to the others. Does that string continue to strobe? You will perform this air gap test on each other none gapped light set and report back the results.

[EVIL Teken]

Is there a list being kept of those found to work ok? I have a couple of brands that i have had no issues with.

From personal experience only trial and error will let you know what operates best in a given user environment. Brands that have worked flawlessly for me are Luminus, Sylvania, Phillips, Lighting Science.

All of the brands listed above dim smoothly down to 5-10% - no flicker, choppiness, buzz / hum, or inject noise on the power line. Having said this many known brands and models have given many users mixed results.

Whether it be from Cree, Eco Smart, etc.

What I do is purchase an entire box set from what ever vendor and return what isn't needed. This allows me to test multiple bulbs at the location and use only the ones that pass my tests. It should be noted some of the Insteon dimmer hardware may offer different behavior than the next. The IIL (Insteon In Line) dimmer vs KPL dimmer, vs Lamp Linc vs Micro Dimmer vs Ballast etc.

[gare]

This may not be directly related to the issue at hand but something to try or rule out as root cause.

- Verify all wire bundles are properly secured using linesmen pliers. More often than not people simply turn the wire nut to secure the wire - this is incorrect!

- Options: The following feature options are only available via software controller and mostly through the ISY vs HUB II. Please ensure blink on traffic, blink on error, is turned off.

- Simple test: Air gap one (Switch Linc) set of light strings and dim the lights to the others. Does that string continue to strobe? You will perform this air gap test on each other none gapped light set and report back the results.

We twist, 35 years as an electrical contractor - newbie insteon, and ZERO percent "check with an oscilloscope". I would love to be able to do that! Hook them up and "see" what is happening. However, I will test next time in the home. What will this test mean if the strobing stops: "- Simple test: Air gap one (Switch Linc) set of light strings and dim the lights to the others. Does that string continue to strobe?"

[gare]

From personal experience only trial and error will let you know what operates best in a given user environment. Brands that have worked flawlessly for me are Luminus, Sylvania, Phillips, Lighting Science.

I will see if any of these referenced manufacturers sell a 4" recessed module with a gimbal, thanks.

All of the brands listed above dim smoothly down to 5-10% - no flicker, choppiness, buzz / hum, or inject noise on the power line. Having said this many known brands and models have given many users mixed results.

How do you know when noise is being injected?

What I do is purchase an entire box set from what ever vendor and return what isn't needed. This allows me to test multiple bulbs at the location and use only the ones that pass my tests.

We had to do an online search to find these fixtures, then we ordered one from the only vendor we found on line. Being a plug-in module versus a lamp and the mandate of 4000k, it has been tough. The one worked fine. We never dimmed it and then turned other loads on/off, we will always do this in the future.

It should be noted some of the Insteon dimmer hardware may offer different behavior than the next. The IIL (Insteon In Line) dimmer vs KPL dimmer, vs Lamp Linc vs Micro Dimmer vs Ballast etc.

This is an interesting thought as well. Most groups are being controlled though Dimmer Switches mounted in the attic via keypads in the living space. I just looked up the in-line - 400watts incandescent. "BLH" (above user) posted an up to 10x rating of fixture when using a dimmer. When the load groups are already dimmed is when they exhibit the rise/fall of output...I may order and try both the in line and the micro dimmer. I looked up "Insteon Ballast" it is 0-10volts for fluorescent, it works with LED's? These modules cannot work off of that, but I will try to remember the availability if I encounter 0-10v control needs.

Thanks!

[EVIL Teken]

We twist, 35 years as an electrical contractor - newbie insteon, and ZERO percent "check with an oscilloscope". I would love to be able to do that! Hook them up and "see" what is happening. However, I will test next time in the home. What will this test mean if the strobing stops: "- Simple test: Air gap one (Switch Linc) set of light strings and dim the lights to the others. Does that string continue to strobe?"

Hello Gary,

For example you have three strings and you air gap two sets. For a moment lets just assume we don't know what exactly is wrong with these bulbs. Is it because they are simply incompatible? The PSU with in the LED bulb are causing noise when dimmed? The change in dimming level is causing the LED driver to react?

The idea is to *Isolate* just one string (area) so you can at least focus on one problem with out mixing in other possible culprits. You may very well find that doing this test offers no change besides the fact they still do strobe. But at least you know it has nothing to do with other Insteon and LED loads active on the line.

[EVIL Teken]

How do you know when noise is being injected?

Normally if you are able to turn on a load fine but the load will not turn off. This is a key indicator that specific load is injecting noise on the line. Sometimes you may just see a very slow response in turning off from a half second to several. Other times in the extreme cases you will notice almost nothing in the area or entire house will react and this is because those loads are emitting large amounts of noise.

Generally speaking most lighting loads induce noise - where as devices like UPS, Computers, and similar absorb the Insteon signal. The phrase noise maker vs signal sucker is the industry term most of us use.

[gare]

Normally if you are able to turn on a load fine but the load will not turn off. This is a key indicator that specific load is injecting noise on the line. Sometimes you may just see a very slow response in turning off from a half second to several. Other times in the extreme cases you will notice almost nothing in the area or entire house will react and this is because those loads are emitting large amounts of noise.

Generally speaking most lighting loads induce noise - where as devices like UPS, Computers, and similar absorb the Insteon signal. The phrase noise maker vs signal sucker is the industry term most of us use.

For some reason I do not get any type of notification someone has posted. The loads turn on and off and dim fine. It is the pesky "dim the group down then turn on another non incandescent load or turn one off (LED or fluorescent) the lights jump to full and back down, sometimes more than once." We are going to install an "approved compatible dimmer" someplace we can get to and still be somewhat easily accessible, change the Insteon dimmer now feeding the lights to a switch, then they at least still have an "all off" control, and on/off from any keypad button programmed for that group. I need to stop the "free time" bleed trying to make it work.

[gare]

Hello Gary,

For example you have three strings and you air gap two sets. For a moment lets just assume we don't know what exactly is wrong with these bulbs. Is it because they are simply incompatible? The PSU with in the LED bulb are causing noise when dimmed? The change in dimming level is causing the LED driver to react?

The idea is to *Isolate* just one string (area) so you can at least focus on one problem with out mixing in other possible culprits. You may very well find that doing this test offers no change besides the fact they still do strobe. But at least you know it has nothing to do with other Insteon and LED loads active on the line.

Well, they do their little thing regardless of other LED loads being active. I dimmed them way down and turned on a bank of fluorescent lights (on an insteon switch), the lights jumped to full and back down to set level at least twice, then they were fine. I could not get them to do so turning on/off a set of incandescent lights, on an Insteon dimmer.

[EVIL Teken]

Sounds to me the fluorescent are in need of looking into depending upon the type of ballasts used they can cause a huge inrush current spike. This may very well be what you're seeing on the other Insteon devices which are strobing and pulsing up and down.