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    Flicker with 2477D Dimmers

    Since installing Insteon 2477D Rev 7.6 dimmers throughout my house, I have noticed that my lights intermittently flicker. I never experienced any flicker before installing these dimmers. Through trial and error, I have discovered that the lights are flickering whenever there is Insteon traffic. Perhaps this traffic is causing a voltage drop in the dimmer which results in the flicker? I tried adding a single 50W halogen bulb to the circuit to see if that reduces the flicker, however it didn’t have any impact.

    The flicker is most noticeable with the dimmers that are controlling Luminus 8W PAR20 LEDs, however I also notice flicker on incandescent bulbs as well.

    I don’t see any flickering on loads (LED or incandescent) connected to Insteon 2477S switches on the same circuit as the dimmers.

    I also have the same 8W LEDs connected to an Evolve ZWave Wall Dimmer without any flickering or issues.

    Is there a known issue with these dimmers / hw revision?

    #2
    I am currently experiencing this same exact thing. I have normal incandescent lights on my 110+ switches around my house, and only the lights on 2477D switches will flicker - AND - the flicker happens to SOME but not ALL the switches on a single breaker - so for example in a 3-gang box, I will have one switch load flicker, and the other two remain stable. Just for fun I put LED lights on them - same problem - and halogens (which are also incandescent) and same deal - flickering randomly. Basically any light. But ONLY on dimmer-based switches. I have a few of those 6-button things too, and they do the same thing (and I suspect the basic dimmer circuitry in those is the same).

    I have been able to make it slightly better by filtering some things - one was a Pioneer receiver (a fairly nice one) - unfiltered and the flicker was every minute or two. But when I filtered it out, now I get some flicker once in about 10 or so minutes. But it's still there. There are SO MANY devices in this house (furnaces, humidifers, you name it) that I simply cannot filter them all, and I cannot easily relate the flickering back to any single device.

    What bugs me right now is that I don't think it's a legitimate solution to try to filter the universe out - it feels like the 2477D is just easily affected by "something".

    I should also mention that I have a few lamplincs that do the same thing - though the load on them won't flicker quite so badly; the 2477D loads will go almost completely to "off" for a fraction of a second.

    With more and more comments about flickering, I think there must be a common issue here - but I am having a tough time finding a pattern.

    I also cannot find any kind of way to troubleshoot the low-level protocol - an ocilloscope is too hard to "see" the data frames in the first few cycles. I am hoping an EE at Smarthome will comment on the switch itself to help understand what kind of electrical "cases" can cause the load to get a dramatic (but short) drop in voltage. I don't know enough about EE-land to truly understand it, but I think the dimmer works in such a way that it "slices" the power up into tiny fragments and then turns the circuit off and on again for small enough slices that the light doesn't get a full cycle of voltage. So then I figured maybe something could trick the switch into skipping a bunch of slices in a row (like it is busy doing something else) - but this is all silly conjecture from a programmer that has no business commenting on EE subjects

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      #3
      I should add that it doesn't always correlate to insteon traffic, but when there IS insteon traffic (even simple traffic like a light sending it's ON signal to my controller) the flickering is almost guaranteed to happen. I can add to that that removing the controller (the USB/computer bridge) does NOT make any difference - flickering occurs with it plugged in or not. I have a few wireless insteon devices as well - motion sensors and water sensors. I have not tried taking the batteries out of ALL the wireless devices, but that is on my "curiosities" list to see if there is any correlation between wireless devices and flickering.

      And, the flickering does not result in data coming out of the USB/insteon bridge - even when telnet'd into that thing and watching the data come across, flickering does not even result in "garbage" coming out of that thing - but that may be simply because the USB/bridge is actually smart enough to throw away incomplete messages or messages that don't have a CRC that matches - and not send them back across the virtual serial interface.

      Comment


        #4
        You are correct. Insteon dimmers use TRIACs (as do most other dimmers) that clip the waveform to achieve dimming. Unfortunately, skipping the clipping results in an increase in brightness.

        Which brings us to the next point, filtering the galaxy of household electronics. Often, only one or two devices are the cause of the difficulty, in this case, flickering. The most likely culprit is a plugged in electronic device. Start by unplugging everything in your home except Insteon devices and any refrigerator or freezer. Everything!!! Troubleshooting is rarely easy.

        Does the flickering stop? Yes? That's good. Post the result.

        No? Unplug any refrigerator/freezer. You should be OK for at least a half hour if you don't open the appliance door.

        Does the flickering stop? Yes/No? Power up those appliances and post the results. That's still OK, we've eliminated a lot.
        Message from Forum Admin: stusviews passed away in April 2018. Stu was a huge fan of Insteon and a huge presence on both the Smarthome and Insteon forums, helping thousands of us along the way (he had nearly 20,000 posts to his name). We thank him for his contributions, dedication, and passion for making the Smart Home a reality. He will truly be missed.
        Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.

        Comment


          #5
          Well, while it may seem totally do-able, in my world, it's very hard / impossible - this is more like a commercial building than a house. There are several kitchens, as an example. And most of the nearly 400 things that are plugged in are not easy to isolate (like built-in TVs and such).

          It would be a much better (and more possible) approach if I could at least start with high-risk-class items, like "audio amplifiers and TVs" are very likely to cause the flicker.

          Another important note: the flicker is a "bright->off->bright" situation, not a "dim->bright->dim" one. So I am looking to understand what "kinds" of electrical situations could cause the TRIAC dimmer to suddenly drop the voltage on it's output side. Since the insteon LEDs don't move, I am going to probably eliminate some sort of "super-awesomely-fast-and-valid insteon command". So that leaves the question: are there any EE's that can look at the circuit design of the 2477D switch and put forth a conjecture about what sorts of "events" can cause the TRIAC to act this way - then perhaps I can focus on devices and pathways that *could* cause these events. Since unplugging 400ish things may not be in the realm of possibility.

          Comment


            #6
            A second approach is to turn off a circuit breakers except, for example, the one that has the most consistent flickering and those that power refrigerators/freezers. Does the flickering stop?

            No: then the cause is on that circuit.

            Yes: turn on breakers one-at-a-time until the flickering occurs.
            Message from Forum Admin: stusviews passed away in April 2018. Stu was a huge fan of Insteon and a huge presence on both the Smarthome and Insteon forums, helping thousands of us along the way (he had nearly 20,000 posts to his name). We thank him for his contributions, dedication, and passion for making the Smart Home a reality. He will truly be missed.
            Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.

            Comment


              #7
              Resolution:
              Based on trial and error approach: i just installed (2) LampLinc Dimmer 2457D2. I bought at homedepot 2 brand LED bulbs: couple of Philips(75W) and couple of echosmart (100W).
              The Philips bulbs are flickering in frequency of about 1 second on-and-off.
              Strange though, when i replaced them with the echosmart, it works just fine. My replay is after testing them to work for an hour or so.

              So i'll replace the philips with echosmart..

              Hope that helps

              -N

              Comment


                #8
                Be sure there aren't any old/failing CFL light bulbs on the same breaker. I have several 2477Ds and they all worked fine except one that flickered an entire LED bulb fixture. I replaced LEDs in fixture with incandescent - still flickered. Turned out it was an old failing CFL bulb that was on the same breaker..... Removed CFL and everything was fine.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I have a small Insteon installation. I have multiple fixtures where the dimmable LED lights randomly flicker. One short off pulse in a 5 to 10 minute period. This happens regardless of light intensity.
                  When I unplug the Insteon hub, the flicker goes away. When I added another scene to a keypad, the amount of flickering decreased. In the system, there are no schedules, etc. How do I go about debugging this?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm seeing lights (connected to Insteon dimmers) flicker too. In one specific case it is an Insteon door sensor that triggers it. Makes it feel cheap.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am having flickering too and can't figure out what could be doing it. It happens every 5 minutes or so. I don't have any insteon traffic turning things on or off. Are some of the switches better than others. Meaning if I replace it is it possible to get one that doesn't have the interference?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ElroyJ View Post
                        I am having flickering too and can't figure out what could be doing it. It happens every 5 minutes or so. I don't have any insteon traffic turning things on or off. Are some of the switches better than others. Meaning if I replace it is it possible to get one that doesn't have the interference?
                        Insteon Dimmer or On/Off relay type??
                        What type of load is on the switches? Like incandescent, incandescent replacement halogen energy saving bulbs, dimmable LED?
                        Is the flickering at 100% on or at some intermediate level?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Its the 2477D dimmer. It only has incandescent bulbs as a load. Its at 100%. I think I its coming from a UPS with computer equipment connected to the UPS which is on a totally different circuit. I tried unplugging the ups and I think the flickering has stopped. So I will try a 1626 filterlinc on it to see if that works. The problem now is no one has them in stock. I am still curios if some of the 2477D pick up noise and others don't. Meaning is it worth trying to replace the 2477D.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm having the same exact issue - 2477D and using dimmable LED lamps and it will go about 5 minutes or so then the entire circuit goes off for about 1/2 - 1 second and then it will pop back on, then a minute or two later same thing, then sometimes it might go 5 - 10 minutes normal and it will happen again. This is at 100% full intensity that this is happening. I actually work in stage lighting and I'm very familiar with Triac and SCR dimming and this should not be happening, sure at lower intensities depending on whether or not it's correctly triggering it could cause some flickering but at 100% intensity if it drops out that means the triggering circuit is not firing on the gate of the triac. Either there is poor control by the electronics/driver or the power supply for those electronics is poorly constructed.

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