Using 2448A7 with Home Assistant - It barely talks to my Micro Dimmer

[Tango]

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

Quick Summary: I'm using Home Assistant and installed an Insteon 2448A7. I don't know the technically correct classification of the 2448A7, but on Home Assistant, I have to treat it as a PLM, so I'll refer to it as that - but if I'm wrong, let me know. I've added a Micro Dimmer and the 2448A7 and the dimmer do not communicate.

History: I've had an ISY-994i for years and it's turned this dimmer on at 30% every evening and off every morning for several years, so I know the dimmer works. There are reasons I want to move from an ISY to Home Assistant. It's also been a few years since I added any Insteon devices to my ISY network, so I don't remember the process. On the ISY, I deleted the dimmer. Then, on Home Assistant, I picked "Add a node" for Insteon. It asked for the dimmer address, category, and subcategory. I entered them and it looks like everything went smoothly and the device was added. However, I saw nothing to confirm it was added.

On the web control panel for HA, I brought up the dimmer as a device. I saw an on/off switch and a slider for brightness. The switch was off, the dimmer was at 0%. I tried to turn it on. The switch on the display showed as on, then reverted to off. The lights did not go on at all. The dimmer control has no effect, neither does the on/off switch. I questioned whether it was even added to the system for a day or so. Then I had to move my Pi, so I turned off HA, put the Pi in the same room as the dimmer (and just through a wall from the closet where the ISY sits). When I looked at the web interface again, I noticed the dimmer showed at 30% (which is what I've left it set at) and the switch was on. (That corresponded to the state of the lights and dimmer at the time.) I turned the lights off manually, but the setting didn't change. I tried controlling the light from HA, but it wouldn't change.

It seems that when HA boots, it can read the status of the dimmer, but that seems to be the only time the dimmer and the PLM communicate. I'd question whether things in the room are blocking communication (there isn't direct line-of-site), but the old AC powered PLM (serial connection through a CAT5 cable) had no problem connecting with this dimmer, even though the signal had to go through wood steps to get there.

EDIT/ADDITION: I have since added an IO Link 2450. It apparently sees it, but I can't turn it on and I can't use it to open/close my garage door (which is what I've been using it for on the old system). I'm assuming, for this, that the on/off setting is about whether the device is activated or not on this network.

One other factor: This is on a Pi 4. I'm also using Z-Wave. I had problems with Z-Wave until someone told me that the Pi 4 and the Z-Stick I'm using are notorious for not working with each other. That seems to be almost a non-issue (or maybe a total non-issue, I'm still checking on it) after I used a 4' USB cable to attach a hub that's over 1' away from the Pi. The Insteon PLM is also plugged into the same USB hub as the Z-stick - and they're both at opposite ends of the hub. That gives them about 2" of separation, just in case that could be the issue.

What's going on and how do I fix it?

[BLH]

The 2448A7 is a Insteon RF only PLM module.
So it has to pass information only by Insteon RF. Through a Dual Band module. To get the Insteon commands onto the power lines and by RF.
Is the dimmer module an older power line only or later Dual Band. If it is an older power line only.
It is possible the power line signals where stronger to the 2450 I/Olinc. From the PLM with the ISY994i than what the module communicating with the 2448A7. Both RF and power line.
I don't use HA so there are no thoughts oh how to set up what you want to do. It does sound like it is not setting it up for the proper relay operations on the 2450.

[Tango]

The 2448A7 is a Insteon RF only PLM module.
So it has to pass information only by Insteon RF. Through a Dual Band module. To get the Insteon commands onto the power lines and by RF.
Is the dimmer module an older power line only or later Dual Band. If it is an older power line only.

The module was working with the 2413S PLM I mentioned in the other thread, where you responded. I bought it in 2017 and, as far as I knew at the time, it should work through RF. I would think that since HA could report its status (so far, I think it's done that twice, both times on reboot), that it is using RF.

It is possible the power line signals where stronger to the 2450 I/Olinc. From the PLM with the ISY994i than what the module communicating with the 2448A7. Both RF and power line.
I don't use HA so there are no thoughts oh how to set up what you want to do. It does sound like it is not setting it up for the proper relay operations on the 2450.

The 2413S PLM plugs into the AC line directly and the 2448A7 plugs into a Raspberry Pi USB port. I'm sure the 2413S has much more available power. (Later today the 2448A7 will be plugged into an AC powered hub, once the hub arrives from Amazon.)

I did find a USB extension cable late last night, so I plugged that into the Pi, ran it up over the edge of the staircase, and plugged the 2448A7 into the extension. The green LED came on, but I don't know what that proves, other than it has some power. With it set up like that, it had direct line-of-sight to the dimmer (other than the dimmer being in the socket in the wall, behind a light sconce). Doing that did not improve communication.

At this point I'm wondering if the dimmer has been receiving signals through the powerline for the past few years.

[Tango]

I've looked over the original listing for this dimmer (2442-222) and the manual. I see it's X10 compatible. That's through power lines, isn't it? I don't see anything that says it's power lines only or anything that says it's RF only or both.

[SeanM]

I've looked over the original listing for this dimmer (2442-222) and the manual. I see it's X10 compatible. That's through power lines, isn't it? I don't see anything that says it's power lines only or anything that says it's RF only or both.

The micro modules are X10 compatible. The Insteon 'X10' signal is passed along via powerline only, one time, at broadcast. Other Insteon devices will not repeat the X10 signal like they do with the Insteon signaling.

Almost all of the Insteon marked micro-modules are dual-band. (models 2442-x22, 2443-x22, 2444-x22) There is an OEM version that is powerline only. (model # 2670LRx)


It really does sound like your 2413s was reaching your devices through the powerline signal vs the RF signal, and I have noticed that the RF on the USB stick doesn't seem to be as strong as an AC connected device. You might consider leaving the 2413S plugged in to act as a bridge between the USB stick and the rest of your house. It doesnt need to be added to HA since any AC connected Insteon device acts as a repeater when powered, without the need for routing info, unlike the Z-Wave devices.

[Tango]

The micro modules are X10 compatible. The Insteon 'X10' signal is passed along via powerline only, one time, at broadcast. Other Insteon devices will not repeat the X10 signal like they do with the Insteon signaling.

Almost all of the Insteon marked micro-modules are dual-band. (models 2442-x22, 2443-x22, 2444-x22) There is an OEM version that is powerline only. (model # 2670LRx)

That was my guess, but only a guess. Thank you for verifying it for me.

It really does sound like your 2413s was reaching your devices through the powerline signal vs the RF signal, and I have noticed that the RF on the USB stick doesn't seem to be as strong as an AC connected device. You might consider leaving the 2413S plugged in to act as a bridge between the USB stick and the rest of your house.

The 2431S was, like I said, hooked up to the old ISY. (To reduce clutter, I'd rather eliminate the ISY, along with a few other older devices I can now bypass.) I know it works and I would be surprised if the USB powered 2448A7 had as much power as an AC powered device.

It doesnt need to be added to HA since any AC connected Insteon device acts as a repeater when powered, without the need for routing info, unlike the Z-Wave devices.

So if I remove it from the ISY, do a factory reset, and plug it in, then it should pick up signals from the 2448A7 and repeat automatically? I've done that, and I think I did the reset properly, but there's still no communication between the 2448A7 and the dimmer. I'm wondering if I need to connect it directly to my Pi with a serial connection to get it to behave.

[BLH]

Yes but only if the 2413S and 2448A7 are with in the RF range of the two modules.
Same for the 2448A7 and the dimmer module or if the 2448A7 can reach another Dual Band Module and it relays the commands to the dimmer.
Do you know if the 2413S can be connected to Pi with a serial signal.
Been awhile but I don't think Pi modules have an RS232 signal level serial connection.
The 2413S does have a send and receive TTL signal set on the RJ45 jack but I have no idea if it would connect with a Pi or actually work.

[Tango]

Yes but only if the 2413S and 2448A7 are with in the RF range of the two modules.

Hate to break it down to this, but here's the physical setup: The Pi with HA on it is in a wooden (particle board with laminate covering, likely) entertainment center. Then there's a USB cable going through the back of that to a USB hub with an Aeotec Z-Stick 7. Since it's a known issue of interference of the Pi 4 USB port and Z-Stick 7 combo, the Z-Stick needs to be about 5" or more from the Pi. I also ran a USB extender cable (I think 10' in length) from the Pi to the 2448A7. (I was thinking proximity to the Pi USB ports or the Z-Stick might be potential issues for the 2448A7 as well.) The extension comes out of the entertainment center, up the wall (including next to the chimney) to the stairs, which go behind the chimney. The 2448A7 is actually on a step (at the edge, near the balusters so it's not stepped on). It's within about 7-8' of the Insteon Micro Dimmer. The dimmer is mounted in a wall socket, so there is metal in the sconce mount between the dimmer and the 2448A7. I am really surprised that, with them that close to each other, that they are not communicating better.

The 2413S is in the closet under the steps and plugged in. So it's about 8', through wood steps, from the 2448A7, to the 2413S and about 8' from the 2413S to the dimmer. I haven't yet had time to figure out where a better place to plug the 2413S in - been looking at other parts of the issue. I think I'm going to have to get an extension cord so I can, for testing, put that on the stair, between the 2448A7 and the dimmer. (Just thought of using an extension cord as I was typing that.)

Same for the 2448A7 and the dimmer module or if the 2448A7 can reach another Dual Band Module and it relays the commands to the dimmer.
Do you know if the 2413S can be connected to Pi with a serial signal.

The 2413S is in the same closet it's been in for several years. In fact, now it's a tad closer to the dimmer (which won't matter as much for dual band). Even when there was only a single wall (drywall with wood 2x4 studs), there was no indication the 2413S was relaying information to the 2448A7 (or from it, either). I'm starting to question just how weak the 2448A7's signal is!

Been awhile but I don't think Pi modules have an RS232 signal level serial connection.
The 2413S does have a send and receive TTL signal set on the RJ45 jack but I have no idea if it would connect with a Pi or actually work.

Yes, isn't it great Insteon actually gives you pinouts for the 2413S?!? It can be so hard to find that kind of info these days! No, the Pi does not have an RS232 serial port, but I have USB/RS232 converters. I don't have a DB9 connector I can get to so I can solder wires, though. I do have one on the way that has screw in connections! (So cool to see that such a thing exists!) I've seen a few things that make me wonder if the two TTL lines are needed for a good connection. While one says INPUT and one says OUTPUT, they both say, "From PLM." That could be a typo (neither saying "To PLM"), but since it's supposed to be RS232, I'm thinking those probably are used for Inseon specific device communication but may not be needed for "normal" serial communications.

I have seen posts on the HA forum about people using the 2413 with HA. I've commented on some of those threads, but so far only one reply and it doesn't provide useful information.

[BLH]

The USB to Serial Port adapter. Known to be Pi4 friendly and usable in HA. Maybe part of the equation.
My 2413S sheet does give the signal type and if to or from the 2413S.
I would stay away from the TTL signals. They have no protection or buffering on them. So any noise or static may effect them and with no buffers may not be able to drive what is connected to it.
I suspect that if someone is connecting a 2413 to the Pi4. It is either the 2413U USB model or through a USB to Serial Port adapter that works with the Pi4.

I will look at a PLM Developers Guide we got as Developer Group members. Short look seems to show the chart on the quick guide is poorly labeled and confusing.

[BLH]

The cable in the PLM box. Has three wires. RJ45-1 to DB9S-2, RJ45-7 to DB9S-5, RJ45-8 to DB9S-3.
The TTL labels are confusing. RJ45-3 TTL signals out from the PLM, RJ45-6 TTL signal into the PLM. RJ45-7 is the common ground for both the TTL and RS232 signals.
Opinion The RJ45 style jack was used on their previous interfaces and they kept the same jack on recent interfaces. Just using some pins for different functions. Like RJ45-2 in a 2412S has unregulated +12VDC on it to power things like the ISY994i that the 2413S has no connection.

[Tango]

On the other thread where we've been discussing this, I'm going to add a note to look over on this thread for more information. The two topics are essentially the same now.

I moved the 2413S so it's in the same room as the 2448A7 and the dimmer and plugged it in. It makes no difference. I have no idea what's going wrong with this, but I'm now suspecting the 2448A7 is not communicating properly. It could be a configuration error or a bad unit. With all three devices in the same room, that doesn't prove there aren't signal issues, but it makes it unlikely that's the issue. (It's a great room - so even though the devices are all within 15' of each other, it's a 2 story high space in some areas, includes a living room, kitchen, and dining room and there is a stone fireplace chimney that is between the 2448A7 and the 2413S, but I would think, in that space, the signals would bounce around off the walls and ceiling.) I suspect I'm going to have to connect the 2413S directly to the Pi to get things going. (That may mean redoing the network, which is only the 2448A7, dimmer, and garage door opener, but that's not a big issue.)

The USB to Serial Port adapter. Known to be Pi4 friendly and usable in HA. Maybe part of the equation.

I wonder if the cable was only included in earlier versions or later versions. While it's possible I could have lost mine, I keep any adaptors or unusual cables I get with any products - or any I buy singly for any specific use. Yesterday I just noticed I still have several old USB to PS/2 connectors and I haven't used anything like that in notably over a decade! While I can roll my own, it's frustrating I don't have or can't find that cable. (Anything like that - non-standard cables with different connectors on each end goes in a special "adaptor" drawer.")

My 2413S sheet does give the signal type and if to or from the 2413S.
I would stay away from the TTL signals. They have no protection or buffering on them. So any noise or static may effect them and with no buffers may not be able to drive what is connected to it.

I was going to skip the TTL signals - for one thing, no clear documentation where they go to on the DB9 serial connector, but this is a good point. If they're not needed and they're easily interfered with, then leave them out.

I suspect that if someone is connecting a 2413 to the Pi4. It is either the 2413U USB model or through a USB to Serial Port adapter that works with the Pi4.

Some of the posts I've seen specifically mention the 2413U, but others have specified a 2413S. I've commented on those threads and asked for more information, but so far only one reply and he doesn't remember the issue or even posting about it.

The cable in the PLM box. Has three wires. RJ45-1 to DB9S-2, RJ45-7 to DB9S-5, RJ45-8 to DB9S-3.

Clear specs for pinouts - that's great! I'm expecting the DB9 connector today that I can use with a CAT5 to build my own cable. I'll probably do that this evening.

The TTL labels are confusing. RJ45-3 TTL signals out from the PLM, RJ45-6 TTL signal into the PLM. RJ45-7 is the common ground for both the TTL and RS232 signals.
Opinion The RJ45 style jack was used on their previous interfaces and they kept the same jack on recent interfaces. Just using some pins for different functions. Like RJ45-2 in a 2412S has unregulated +12VDC on it to power things like the ISY994i that the 2413S has no connection.

That would make sense.

[BLH]

The TTL signals are from the RJ45 jack on the 2413S and do not go into the DB9S as it is for serial.
You would have to make a cable from the RJ45 jack on the PLM to the Raspberry Pi. I suspect it would be pins on the GPIO header and support would have to be written into the program running for proper use.

[Tango]

The TTL signals are from the RJ45 jack on the 2413S and do not go into the DB9S as it is for serial.
You would have to make a cable from the RJ45 jack on the PLM to the Raspberry Pi. I suspect it would be pins on the GPIO header and support would have to be written into the program running for proper use.

I have seen a few posts about NOT using the pins on the GPIO for "normal" RS232. I have a USB to Serial/DB9 ready for that part - then my own cable once the part gets here.

[BLH]

Correct. RS232 is a signal that swings positive and negative. Many times -12VDC to +12VDC.
The GPIO is TTL levels 0 and +5VDC . Putting a RS232 signal into a GPIO pin will most likely damage it.
I looked at a few Raspberry Pi models. None have a RS232 serial port on them.

[Tango]

Referring to your most recent post on the other thread (and trying to just move it all here - so it doesn't get confusing), since the 2448A7 is a PLM, and the 2413S is now plugged in to an outlet in the same room as the 2448A7, and the dimmer is in the same room, since the dimmer is still not responding, then somehow the 24487 is not communicating at all.

Unless the 2413S is not "network agnostic" and it somehow decides what signals to forward and what not to. (I'd think it would just a matter of getting any signal and forwarding it to the addressed device, without worrying about which network it's on.)

I have the DB9, so I'm going to make up a cable now and test it. I'm hoping that takes care of it. If so, then I need to return the 2448A7 for a refund. (Unless there's a reason it might be useful, but, in the future, considering this issue, I think I'd rather pay more for the 2413U than for the 2448A7.)