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  • Phase Coupler

    I want to use a 2450 low voltage controller for the spa heater. Since it's line only, if I install a couple of 2477SA-1's for the pool and spa pumps, will they act as phase couplers?

    The installation is in a detached building that houses the pool pumps, heater, well pump for the house. The building is less than 100' from the Hub through block and stucco walls.. I have experimented with dimmer modules (I know they are dual) and communication is good in all combinations of pumps on/off.

    Presently X-10 controls the pool pumps and spa heater. A phase coupler is installed in the main circuit breaker box in the house not the detached building sub panel. Insteon can operate the X-10's here, but it depends on which pump is running. Once the pool pump is running operation is frustrating. However, as I mentioned the dimmer modules work plugged in the detached building flawlessly.

    Hence switching to 2477SA-1's. So depending on the answer of 2477SA-1's acting as couplers, should I remove the X-10 coupler. (I am assuming it's X-10 branded, been about 20 years since I put it in there. Last time I had the panel open, the coupler still functioned according to it's self test.)


  • #2
    Is the building 220VAC?
    Is one of the 2477SA-1 switches on each 120 VAC line from the 220VAC feed? If not they are not coupling the phases. They both are acting as RF and Power Line signal extenders.
    Since they are Dual Band but their RF antennas on the back side of the electrical box. If it is metal their effective RF range is limited and maybe directional from the metal electrical boxes.
    Since the Dual Band Lamp Modules did work. I suspect they are better at getting the RF and power line signals back on the power lines to the 2450 than the 2477SA-1's are.
    It sounds like the pumps and heaters maybe making power line noise or signal absorbing. OK to go On be not back Off. Can be the load. When Off the signals can turn it On but when on the noise or signal sucking from the load. Kills the Off command.

    What X10 coupler are you using. Can you find a part number? If it is a passive one it should be fine. If it is a repeater coupler. Many of them see the later part of an Insteon command as an X10 one and incorrectly send back on the power lines. An X10 command it thought it received.
    Last edited by BLH; 06-30-2017, 10:27 AM.

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    • #3
      The Insteon Load Control Relay will act as a bridge between the opposite legs of the [I]single-phase[/I] electric supply. As BLH indicated, if the existing phase-coupler is passive, then it can remain in place because X10 and Insteon powerline frequencies are close enough that a bridge for one is an effective bridge for the other. But, an active X10 coupler will wreak havoc with Insteon signals.
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      • #4
        alrighty then... opened the main circuit breaker panel and low and behold, not what I thought. The device is a Leviton Cat. No HCA02. It has the words "System Amplifier/Repeater". I did say I assumed it was X-10 branded. So by what you are saying this is something bad in my system. Maybe that was the whole problem with my pulsing VONN lights with Lutron Dimmers in another post.

        It's easy enough to disable as it is connected to a 220V breaker that is not used. I feel I will loose control to the lighting in the Tiki Hut (half of it is still X-10), but since you are telling me the Load Control Relay will act as a bridge then I'll be back in business in a few days. After all the 2477SA-1 is on sale. And with the 4th of July savings I'll abandon my plan to make my own relays with On/Off modules.

        You wouldn't happen to know if the 2477's are on sale because a newer product is coming out?

        To answer the above question, yes the 2477's will control single phase 220V pumps. The Load Control Relay is DPST?

        I can place the 2477's in two places.

        One - in the plywood walled room with the pumps that is inside the building. Mounting would be on the wall such that the back side of the controller would face away from the main house. The outside of the building is stucco over metal lathe.
        Two - Next to the sub panel such that the back side of the controller would face parallel to the main house still having to go through the stucco and metal lathe.

        Great responses, thank you to both of you!

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        • #5
          Stucco and metal lathe is a hindrance to RF, but coupling is via the powerline. If you had success with the dimmers, then you should be OK with the load controllers.

          Insteon doesn't reveal new products until they're in production, but a lot of devices are on sale, virtually everything. A holiday sale is just that, it's not for selling products that are being replaced.

          An X10 amplifier/repeater is an active device and you are correct, that is a likely cause of Insteon problems. It's best to not just remove the Leviton phase-coupler, but also install an [url=http://www.smarthome.com/signalinc-insteon-2406h-phase-coupler-hardwired.html"]Insteon hard wired coupler[/url] in its place.

          And yes, the load controller is a DPST relay.
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          • #6
            The HCA02 is the Leviton coupler repeater. I believe it is the same electronics as the X10Pro XPCR. I have not seen anything specific with Insteon but it maybe a factor. As many models do false on Insteon and other protocol power line commands. I know it can get into a X10 signal Firestorm with the CM15A under certain conditions. You can away turn the breaker off and see what changed. I suspect you are correct on the X10 devices getting worse.

            They rarely give any information on new devices. Except sometimes with a prerelease sale to get them into the public hands when released.

            I suspect there isn't a new model. Just one of the around holiday sales they have during the year.

            The flickering lights are probably not influenced by the Insteon Power Line commands. More like the commands are causing the dimmers electronics to briefly change the light level.
            Last edited by BLH; 06-30-2017, 01:25 PM.

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            • #7
              So the 2477SA-1 acting as a bridge between the two lines is not the same as a phase coupler?

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              • #8
                A bridge and a phase-coupler are two terms that describe the same action. A phase-coupler bridges the opposite legs of the [I]single-phase[/I] electric supply.
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                • #9
                  If the two 2477SA-1 switches are on the same Line phase. They are coupling the commands between them.
                  If one is on one Line and the other one on the other Line. They still couple commands between them and also couple the two incoming phase Lines.

                  If you start the built in Beacon Test {some call it the four tap test}. Observing the LED on the other one. Will show if they can communicate between them and the LED color will indicate same or opposite phase.
                  Last edited by BLH; 06-30-2017, 03:29 PM.

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                  • #10
                    The 2477SA is a 220 volt load controller. It must be connected to opposite legs of the [I]single-phase[/I] electric supply. The load controller does not have a neutral connection.
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                    • #11
                      okay, reads like the 2477sa1 can replace my existing 220V X-10 switch for my pool pump. In addition the 2477sa1 will replace the Leviton amplifier/repeater in the main electric panel to "bridge/couple" the single phase power in my home, the two 110v lines coming in. Regarding the neutral, part of the circuit not the switch.

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                      • #12
                        Yes, a load controller will bridge the powerline. So will an pair of dual-band devices placed on opposite legs (there's a test for that). And the load controllers are dual-band themselves and are already on opposite legs.

                        But all Insteon signals that originate on one leg that send or receive signals to or from a device on the opposite leg must cross a bridge. Most dual-band devices can accomplish that. But in the event that RF is impeded, then the signal must travel from the controller to the panel and from the panel to the responder. A hard-wired coupler shortens that path. I have one on each of our two panels. It's an easy installation as you already have a coupler in place ;)
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                        Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
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